Minimum raid specs.
Hey!
I like the new site ... I guess this is the first post in the mage advice forum!
I'm looking for some help regarding the minimum #s I should be looking to obtain to get involved in the raiding the guild does. I guess this means Icecrown Citadel for the most part. I think also Trial of the Crusader?
During the week, I don't get a lot of time to play because of work and other stuff that has to get done, so I've been spending a lot of time in PvP to get some better gear (well, also because I like to PvP and want gear for it). I'm afraid to do heroics when I don't have large chunk of time because of the commitment required to other people (I refuse to just abandon people if I need to go), whereas PvP is simple matter to hop in and out.
I realize PvP gear not ideal for PvE, but the initial research I've done suggests that if I gem/enchant and priortize the right PvP equipment, I should be able to put together something respectable. I've completed the Furious set and am working on picking up some Wrathful offsets that have +hit and +crit. I intend to get hit to atleast 380, which I know is doable looking at the PvP stats, crit to around 800 and the rest into SP or haste if SP is not possible.
When all is said and done, I'm hoping to have around 2200 SP, 800+ crit, 380+ hit, some unknown haste.
Am I on the right track? Are these numbers good enough to start signing up? Is Arcane the only viable spec these days or does it matter?
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Ok First Things First
I know nothing of mage dps, and we're a little low in the experienced mage department at the moment. Hopefully we can get some answers for you that consist more than just pointing towards the elitist jerks website.
As far as raiding with the guild, on raid nights we'll take everyone we can sign up. If we're heavy I"ll find out who is willing to sit. Usually there are multiple people who don't really care if they sit, are already uber geared, aren't feeling great, whatever. And so everyone that signs up GENERALLY gets to go. When we have 16 people and only the right classes for a single 10 man people are gonna be forced to sit, but we try not to make it based on gear.
If anything we are motivated to get some of that magical dps geared up, which means bringing you mages into raids as much as we can.
That said, we'll take someone even if they're a fresh 80 and doing 2k dps. If you're a brand new 80 and can't pull 2k dps, then definitely you need to look some stuff up. I know that every dps class can pull those numbers if they try on a training dummy. Running heroics for emblems, getting in on the raid weekly, etc. Gets you frosts and triumphs and gear up.
But we seem to be on a 1k per tier type increase. 2k for going into Naxx for the first time. 3k to do well in Ulduar. 4k in Trial of the Crusader, and 5k for Icecrown.
If you're not pulling 5k in Icecrown, that's fine....for the lower citadel. For Festergut though we kind of need the worst dps to be doing 5k so that the best dps can counter it. WE need to AVERAGE 7k dps for our dpsers (7.2k actually) to get Festergut down in 25 man mode.
So...I guess what I'm saying is I hope someone else can give you specific hints and stuff, but don't feel like your dps is a reason to not sign up for our general raids. Getting in and doing 2k dps compared to some others 5,6,7k dps or more might make youf eel like you're not pulling your weight, but if you get a couple drops in there your dps will JUMP and it helps you both in experience as well as gear.
Anyway. That's all. How much dps do you need to raid with us? Whatever you've got, and if it's low we'll help you get more.
Prolly OK to start
As you get loot from bosses to replace that PvP gear, you'll move up quick. My primary alt is a mage, and since the 3.3.3 patch, all that crit would make a 20/51/0 spec attractive I'm thinking. Fire won't run out of mana as fast as arcane, will do competetive dps, and I'm guessing you don't have a ton of int on that PvP gear, so that makes the spec attractive for you. The mage FAQ on wowhead.com's mage forum has the cookie cutter build for 20/51/0 if you are interested.
My main is a warlock, and I run Demo, so you will be getting a nice SpellPower boost if I'm in the raid (I think I'm the only Demo lock that raids currently), and would be a nice target for your focus magic (wink, wink). Heroics really don't take much longer than 15 minutes to run if you have a good group, even the newer ones can be pretty quick now. One or two a day can get you 2piece Tier 9 in a couple weeks. If a guildy is running one, hop in and you'll be done in no time... :)
Tal is right, we need some mage love, we have some gearing right now, but the more the merrier!
So I hope that gets you started, I'm not a mage expert either, but I do play one often. I would think in the gear you have with that spec you could easily do 2.5k dps if you have the hit rating required, and ToC would be a good place to start upgrading gear raid wise, as we do gearing runs there from time to time. As Tal said, we take everyone that signs up, but in a DPS race like Festergut, might be tough until you get some more PvE gear.
Great, encouraging replies,
Great, encouraging replies, thanks. :)
@Talarashne:
Cool!
I haven't tested my DPS against a dummy in awhile, but I was doing about 2K DPS before, sometimes 2.2, with fairly crappy equipment (some poor man's epics off of the AH or easy quests) and just basic buffs. I haven't tested recently -- I'll put that on my to-do list.
Sounds like I could do some Naxx and maybe get carried in Ulduar at the moment -- otherwise, I'll try doing more Heroics, like you said, if (like Richrod says) they're only taking 15 minutes a pop.
"How much dps do you need to raid with us? Whatever you've got, and if it's low we'll help you get more."
I love that about the guild. My only concern is holding everyone else back because my gear won't cut it -- so I'll definitely try to stay within the raids I think I can handle.
@Richrod
I think I'll switch to a fire/arcane spec, or a slight derivative, as you suggest and see how that works. Seems like a good idea to me.
Otherwise, I'm not sure which way I want to spec yet -- I feel that I need to experiment and see what I feel works best (and that I enjoy playing) before settling on something permanant. I'd prefer a primary fire spec as I like to burn things, but if a primary arcane is more useful for the raid, then I could be convinced to switch.
(maybe even a dual spec, if that's useful, although I'd be a sad panda if I had to re-spec for PvP all the time)
In any case, I think feel a little more comfortable now in the direction I am going -- it that I did not get a "HELL NO" response. Thank ye kindly!
Raiding with NO.
You've definitely got the right mindset. Understanding your limitations is important - not everyone's got the juice on every character to handle 25-man ICC at the moment, and realizing and accepting that makes everyone's job one hell of a lot easier. Continuing to work, improving the stuff you can improve, shows that you're willing to take the steps necessary to pull your weight in a raiding environment. I know heroic grinding ain't fun, but that'll get you gear, especially if you can start getting into the new ones; some of those drops are very, very good, and pretty easy to come by now that most people have geared past them. You'll pick up T9 lickety-split, and once you get a few pieces of Frost badge gear to complement that you'll be absolutely loaded for bear.
Yeah
Seriously. If you run the raid weekly every week, and one heroic random a day, after a couple weeks you'll be able to pick up a frost emblem offset, and have at least one piece if not two of T9. More heroics and you get even more triumph. With an hour a day of dungeon runs, you'll get full T9 within a month, and some offset. All from just heroics, and jumping in on the raid weekly once a week. Make sure it's enchanted and Gemmed (the guild can help you do that) and then you'll be good.
we need to do more gearing runs in ToC to get offset pieces and weapons for people, but just having full T9 will make you not a burden on any raid.
Awesome. I did a DPS test
Awesome.
I did a DPS test last night with the few upgrades I've gotten from PvP with self-buffs only and can sustain 2.5-2.7K DPS with peaks of 3K+, so I know I'm doing something right.
I'll start trying to do at least 1 random along with my 1 random PvP a day (arena points, yay!) -- although even an hour on a weekday can sometimes be hard to come by. My family owns their own business and I just don't always have the free time (I have to eat, exercise and sleep too!) :)
However, this is much more of a plan than I had before and I know what I need to do now.
Thanks for all the replies!
Global minimums, for raiding
Wanna be the best raider you can be?
Be on time
Have you Flasks, Elixers. Buff foods etc..
Be Repaired
Are you on vent?
Do you have at a minimum these addons..
Deadly Boss Mods
EpGp
Omen3
Check to see you have the appropiate enchants, gems for your class, and spec.
if you don't have shoulder, or head enchants work on getting them, you're just giving up free stats.
if you have a question, about Class, Spec, healing/Dps rotations, ask...no one will fault you for wanting to get better.
Pay Attention, and don't stay on the gunship as it's crashing...or cause you wanted to hang out and kill mortar crews :)
Mage guide
Greetings. I pulled my main (arcane mage, Kaawumba) out of this guild to join a raiding guild. However, I still lurk on the site from time to time, and my knowledge may be helpful here. Note that I will be using command voice to save typing on my part, but all decisions are your own. First, your original question. When you are dps, only one number matters: total damage done. Any other numbers: spellpower, haste, crit, gearscore *shudder* are only relevant as they increase damage. If you are not a mage, or would like to understand the process by which I came up with these recommendations, look at http://old.natural-order-guild.com/content/kaawumbas-non-denominational-...
Spec choice:
These days, arcane is the max dps spec. It has been a while since I have seen a non-arcane mage, and much longer since I have been beaten by one. You can look at my armory page to see the spec that I use, which is very close to the one recommended by Rawr.
Rotation:
1) Macro of doom
#showtooltip Mirror Image
/run SetCVar("Sound_EnableSFX","0")
/cast Icy Veins
/use 13
/cast Berserking
/cast Arcane Power
/cast Mirror Image
/run SetCVar("Sound_EnableSFX","1")
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
2) Arcane blast till 4 stacks AND missile barrage proc
3) Arcane missiles
Roll the fingers from 1) to 2). Note that Berserking is a troll racial. You may not have an equivalent. Yes, I do hit the macro every rotation. However, once you get to the haste cap (around 1000) you shouldn't hit it while bloodlusted.
Gear:
Use Rawr for almost all gearing decisions, except set it to use unlimited mana, and make sure that the hit buff (misery or improved faerie fire) is set correctly for your raid situation. Don't throw away gear, and use the Rawr optimizer. Understand the hit cap. Stay away from PvP gear for PvE. Even if it is almost as good, it isn't as good. If you can't commit to running heroics, you can't commit to raiding. Put purified gems in blue slots, reckless gems in yellow slots, and runed gems in red slots. If you need hit, replace the reckless with a veiled. If you are far from the haste cap, replace the runed with a reckless. You can get decent badge gear from heroics. Don't forget that you can downgrade Triumph badges to the other kinds for the odd slot. Also, look into tailored epics. The Primordial Saronite gear is very expensive still, but the other pieces are fairly reasonable in price.
Some other macros:
#showtooltip Ice Block
/stopcasting
/cancelaura Ice Block
/cast Ice Block
Hit once you go invulnerable. Hit again to start fighting again.
/stopcasting
/cancelaura Invisibility
/cast Invisibility
Hit once to wipe agro. Hit again to start fighting again.
#tooltip spellsteal
/stopcasting
/cast spellsteal
Cancels any cast, so you can spellsteal.
#tooltip counterspell
/stopcasting
/cast counterspell
Cancels any cast, so you can counterspell.
Buffs:
Flask of the Frost Wyrm, Fish Feast or Firecracker Salmon, Potion of Speed. Molten armor usually. Mage armor if you are mana starved.
Glyphs:
Molten Armor, Arcane Blast, Arcane Missiles, Slow Fall
DPS:
I do about 6K dps against a target dummy (including an evocate and two mana sapphires), but I do run out of mana in about 3 minutes. I typically don't run out of mana during raids, especially if I switch to mage armor. I do about 7K dps on 10 mans, and 8K dps on 25 mans. Practically speaking, I give out invites based upon reliability (signing up and showing up) rather than raw numbers. However, if you are doing less than half of these numbers, I might try to invite someone else next time. Realize though, as mentioned above, natural order is pretty open about invites, and my main is not in natural order.
Add ons:
Bartender4 - Allows you to put your action bars where you want, and set up keybindings quickly.
CBH Viewport - Increases the field of view
Decursive - Decursing made trivial
Quartz - Cast bar mod. Allows you to time your casts better to reduce downtime.
Recount - Gives total damage, dps, cause of death, and other useful info.
Satrina Buff Frames - Allows you to make custom buff bars. Note especially that you can make a custom buff bar that shows only Missile Barrage, Arcane Blast, and Bloodlust. I then make that bar very large. This reduces the rotation screw ups to near zero. After you have installed it, type /sbf options . Under the general frame, crate a new frame (button on the bottom right). Click the filters tab. Add the following filters:
n=Arcane Blast&my
n=Missile Barrage&my
n=Bloodlust
Go to the layout tab to make the frame large.
@Siopao I like the simplicity
@Siopao
I like the simplicity of your suggestions. Thanks.
@kaawumba:
Thanks for the reply, although I think it falls a little outside the scope of the original questions. I'm fairly versed in macros, mods, rotations and specs.
I just wanted a general idea of what kinds of numbers raid-ready mages have on their characters to make any kind of progress in end-game raiding. A "standard" or "average", if you will, to shoot for while collecting gear. For you to say:
"When you are dps, only one number matters: total damage done. Any other numbers: spellpower, haste, crit, gearscore *shudder* are only relevant as they increase damage"
That seems a bit silly. You are quite right to point out that 'spellpower, haste, crit' affect damage, so it seems as those numbers matter quite a bit. Without those, you will not be doing damage -- so it seems it is quite the opposite of what you say: since damage is DEPENDENT upon spellpower, haste and crit (among others), than it necessarily follows that those numbers are of paramount importance and damage is only relevant insofar as those other numbers can produce it.
Whether you can press buttons in the right order is irrelevant if the results of your button pushing don't produce the #s you want or need.
In any case, your post, while appreciated, is why I joined Natural Order and not a more serious raiding guild. I can't stand the attitude that numbers are more important than playing with good people and having a good time.
I understand you're writing with a "commanding" voice for ease of explanation, so please don't take my reply the wrong way, as I'm sure it will come off as adversarial. I am naturally argumentative, and a strong voice just exacerbates my response.
I don't like the mindset of "this way or the highway". This is a video game, not a job. I don't get paid to have maximum damage or follow a TheoryCrafted formula. I play to have fun.
If the people I play with are more concerned with numbers or results over the enjoyment of the game, the the entire point (of playing) is destroyed, in my opinion, and I'd rather do something else.
You have more experience than I do with raiding, so you may have discovered that progression is not possible without adhering to a strict standard. If I discover, for myself, that is also true, I will quit playing WoW, because I am not interested in a game that gives you an illusion of choice but only effectively allows a very specific setup for every class. That isn't to suggest that all builds should be viable.
This mindset in WoW that raiding must be done a certain way annoys me to the point where I feel I want to be contrarian just out of spite.
That said, I am not going to join a raid where I do not think I can pass muster, because I realize other players may not share my same philosophy (that fun is paramount and progression is only marginally relevant), so I'm not about to spoil their game by dragging them down.
I do think, however, I can get to a point, unconventionally (in this case, with PvP gear) and pull my weight, without necessarily being optimal -- at least optimal in the sense that a lot of raiders push. Optimal, for me, is whatever produces the most fun, not the most progress, gear or damage. I can strive not to be a burden, however -- which lets everyone win, no matter their philosophy.
"Even if it is almost as good, it isn't as good. If you can't commit to running heroics, you can't commit to raiding."
Maybe you're right. Statements like this, though, make me want to run heroics even less, because the sentiment that comes across is that "this game is a job, either you do it right or GTFO". Games aren't [expletive deleted] commitments. I play to avoid responsbilities, not make new ones. Maybe I want to do a raid stark naked: if that's not acceptable, than there is an obvious standard/minimal (of base statistical #s) that is expected that I want to meet before signing up to any raids, however I meet it, whether with PvE or PvP gear.
Again, I appreciate the response. I think we have very different gaming philosophies, which I don't think would mesh well at all ... but thank you for taking time out of your day. I know how precious time can be, seeing as I usually have very little of it and it always means a lot to me when complete strangers take the time to post their thoughts.
(edit: I will say that Rawr looks pretty awesome.)
Comments
I gave a much more thorough answer than you requested because there were several comments above about the shortage of experienced mages. I don't visit this site that often, and I may miss the next question. Also, I will be cross posting this topic on my current guild website, so there was no good reason that you could not see it.
On dps being the one true number: This is how it works in practice. If I find a mage who puts out 10K dps with 1K spellpower, I want him on my team. If I find a mage who puts out 1K dps with 10K spellpower, I don't want him on my team. I only really look at gear numbers until I have raided with someone once. I was also using hyperbole for effect to counteract all those who believe that gearscore indicates the value of a player. Gear is easy to fix, skill is harder, and attitude is harder still.
On who you play with, and having fun: I didn't comment on this, because it was even further off topic. The goal (if you are raiding) is to find 10 or 25 people who agree with you on your definition of fun. My idea of fun is to down hard bosses. This requires that everyone pulls their weight, and to strive to be that the best that they can be. This is not just about numbers, but also about personality. Contrary to popular belief, the best players are not assholes. If your idea of fun is something else, that's fine, but try to find others who agree.
On the one true path, and how good you have to be: If you want to progress you have to be better. I have to better. Everyone except for Paragon (who has downed Lich King 25 on hard) has to be better. If you prefer, you could just be patient, and see all the content a patch or three late. For that matter, there is no requirement to raid. Natural Order is not a progression guild, so you don't have to have my mindset. However, you asked how good you have to be to do Icecrown, so I gave you my answer. And because it is more useful to tell you how to get there rather than just tell you where you need to be, I went on for a bit.
On committment: Even Natural Order has requirements. If you sign up to a raid, you are expected to show up. Nine other people are expecting and relying on you. The analogy Talarashne likes to use is that of a baseball league. Even if it is a game, and you are there for fun, you still make a committment when you sign up. If you don't want to commit, that's fine, but then don't sign up.
Even the best skill in the
Even the best skill in the world won't produce the damage output if the base numbers aren't there, as I tried to point out. I suck at math, but the damage is still just a calculated number. The ceiling to break then, so to speak, are the numbers that produce the damage and no amount of skill will let you overcome such a limitation.
Something like:
X = Z / Y
Where Z = damage, X = stats, Y = skill. If you have 100% skill (1.0), then you can reach maximum damage, but the damage is still equal to X -- stats.
"Gear is easy to fix, skill is harder, and attitude is harder still."
In my world, skill and attitude are easy and gear is hard. Gear requires time, which I have little. Skill requires game experience, which I have lots. Attitude is philosophy and motivation and just needs to be in sync with others (which, I think, is a point you and I agree).
"On who you play with, and having fun: I didn't comment on this"
Well, you did, in my opinion, but it was between the lines.
"My idea of fun is to down hard bosses. This requires that everyone pulls their weight, and to strive to be that the best that they can be."
That's fine, but again, the sentiment that comes across is that you expect other people to play a certain way in order to for them, in your opinion, to be pulling their weight -- or to be the "best". There's nothing wrong with that -- as long as the others you're playing with agree.
I understand where you are coming from -- I can be very competitive, I like to be top of the charts in the games I play (I play a lot of FPS shooters and I like to win), and I generally like to be the very best -- but that's a personal decision. People are going to play the way they want to play, so -- to me -- it feels pointless to expect them to "be" any different, like expecting a cat to be a dog.
I account for myself and try to align myself with others of a similar mindset. The reason I didn't join a progression guild was because the prevelant notion that numbers & time-invested trump fun -- and I think they do, if w're doing things we would otherwise not do in order to obtain a certain result (in my case, spec'ing for arcane instead of fire, because even if I know arcane is better for DPS, I like setting things on fire).
Again, I think we agree, just pointing it out.
"On committment ... then don't sign up."
I don't sign up if I can't show up or can't stick around. To me, however, that isn't commitment, that's just common courtesy. Commitment is paying your bills or staying faithful to a spouse. Showing up to a raid you signed up for is just being a good person -- good sportsmanship -- to tie in with Talarashne's analoogy.
That doesn't mean I want to get married to my guildmates -- or that the raid is so important that it would supercede all other responsibilities (like staying faithful or adhering to the terms of a contract would) -- which what "commitment" means to me.
Like sports, WoW is fun, but there are responsibilities that come before fun -- and why I will not "commit" to a game, because I know I can't ignore other responsibilities that might arise -- like work, FBI raids, hot dates, friends visiting, house burning down, etc.
I feel that we are more or less saying the same things but have different underlying philosophies and motivations. :)
Anyway, haha ... we are way off my topic now, because I like to argue. I hope you don't take any of this the wrong way.
Thanks for the thoughts.
P.S. -- If you main a mage, I'd still be curious as to what your statistics are that allow you to produce your DPS -- to reinforce why the stats are so important, if I were to have similar stats (for sake of argument, as I'm sure I'm well-below) and am doing less DPS, I know that "I'm doin' it wrong." :P
Stats
Yes, my main is a mage.
From the armory, unbuffed:
Bonus Damage (formerly called spellpower): 2978
Hit Rating (Cap is 289 without hit buff): 293
Crit: 880
Haste Rating (Cap is around 1000): 985
Intellect: 1680
Spirit: 265
From Rawr, all buffs:
Bonus Damage (formerly called spellpower): 3665
Hit Rating (Cap is 210 with hit buff): 212
Crit: 1226
Haste Rating (Cap is around 1000): 1012
Intellect: 1833
Spirit: 458
I have a different set of gear for when I have the hit buff.
:)
simple works, it's the easiest way to not be misunderstood.
Truer words never spoken.
Truer words never spoken.