Firelands Heroics
Avel - Wed, 11/16/2011 - 10:32
in
Hey all, to help ignite a discussion on firelands raiding, I though I'd start a post to gauge interest.
I have a few ideas on what could happen pre-raid (i.e. possibly putting a roster together the weekend before and having boss strategy discussions prior to the raid so we don't misuse time in game) for the best results, but again, guild member interest gauging comes first.
So: Who wants to seriously start progressing through firelands heroics.
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I'm down
Not sure how far we'll get considering 4.3 is looming around the corner, but it would be really nice to get those mounts. =D
Heroics
Shared lockouts between 10man and 25man AND heroic and non-heroic mean that it's a one-or-the-other choice we're making when we raid. Putting together a 10man group to just go through heroics locks 10 people out of participating with the regular 25man raid, and deprives 15 others of a chance to be part of heroic progression. So right now we strive for heroics on 25man.
Right now the plan is to attempt heroics as part of our regular raid nights. I didn't have us do that last night since we had some newish people to the raid, and we went to Rhyolith first. Tonight it seems like there is a lot more interest in going for the Shannox achievement over doing the fight on heroic, so that is what we'll end up doing. Then next week, we can work on heroic Shannox like we'd planned, and go from there.
Heroics
I understand the reasoning behind why that's what we're doing, but at the same time I'm concerned that newer raid members don't have the gear to do heroic progression, and that it's not going to happen before the next patch. Honestly, I don't think it's realistic to strive for getting 25man heroic progression going, it doesn't make sense no matter how I look at it.
The kill route we took last night gave an excellent means of splitting the raid in a most fair way. 25 man kills of Rhyolith, Alysrazor, Baelroc and Bethtillac are obviously in our reach for Tuesday kills, leaving the two easier heroic bosses, Shannox and Staghelm for Wednesdays/Today heroic progression, and for regular progression for those who don't want to do heroics, and I'm sure there are people who don't want to do heroics or realize that heroics are out of their reach at the moment.
To be blunt, I don't think we're going to get the corrupted firehawk for now no matter the approach we take. That leaves the choice between getting an achievement and getting heroic bosses. The achievement is a feather in the hat, but so is downing heroic bosses, and heroic bosses come with tangible rewards, not just for the people doing the content, but for the people in the 25man who group with them on Tuesdays in the form of quicker, easier kills. (Plus they're needed for the firehawk anyways) Second, we can do achievements at any time in the future, most of which willl be trivialish when we overgear the content.
Putting it succinctly, sending 10 people to heroic content has greater benefit to the guild overall, and as an all-inclusive guild doesn't that suit our goals better?
P.S. I have some questions on guild raid policy for heroics.
Are there guild rules for iLvl requirements for heroic progression?
How is EPGP handled for heroic raids? i.e. I would imagine GP costs are probably a lot higher for heroic gear; is there a corresponding increase in EP awarded for heroic runs? The math interests/toubles me... maybe I'll make a spreadsheet...
No, and here's why
Who get to be the 10? No matter what way you look at it, selecting 10 people to run heroics is going to mean that someone gets left out that otherwise feels they deserve to be there. I'm willing to bet that my 10man heroic group would be very different than others. So it's not in line with our inclusive policy. It excludes people from participating in raiding. And that's not what this guild is about.
What would be in line is to do what Cacc suggests below, which is keep plowing through FL on 25man to get as many people the gear and experience they need to get a leg up on the T13 raids as possible. Then after patch 4.3 drops, T12 is open for groups to raid on their own, since we'll be focusing mainly on the new raid tier for our regular raid nights. It'd be no different that what happened with T11 once T12 was released. People are running T11 heroics now, in their own groups, while we run T12 as regular raid content. When we're running T13 as regular raid content, people can run heroic T12 without it interfering with regular raid lockouts.
I understand that for many people - and I include myself in this grouping - normal Firelands doesn't offer any more personal progression. I get that. I get that people are itching to do heroics. But I also think we need to keep in mind other goals like, getting Zee the staff, which will occur faster if we keep running 25mans and would be a big morale boost to the guild , and getting people geared, which will occur faster if we run 25mans.
Plus, the shared lockout thing really throws a wrench into everything. If normal and heroic didn't share the same lockout, then this wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately they do though, and we have to take that into consideration. 10 people getting to go as a set group and run heroics, excludes them from being able to run with the rest of the guild on regular raid nights, and impacts the people that weren't part of the heroic group.
I can't get behind putting together a 10man just to run current tier heroics. I am up for running as we have been and doing T12 heroics after 4.3, just like we are doing T11 heroics now. I am up for attempting T12 heroics as part of our regular 25man raids nights. I am up for putting together a 10man heroic T12 group if we end up short of 25 people on a raid night.
If we have 25 people signed up for raid, then we're raiding as a 25man group - not splitting one group into an elite group to run heroics, and leaving the rest to run normals. Been there, done that, dealt with raid drama from running 2 10's once this tier already, and am not interested in dealing with it again. There is also more room for error in 25mans. In 10mans I have to be a lot more exclusive as to who I bring, what classes, etc. In 25man we get more wiggle room, so we can bring 4 warlocks and no hunters and still manage to down Beth'tilac.
So I'm sorry. I know people are champing at the bit to run heroics as a 10man. But my answer is still no.
As for your other questions:
Heroics are considered progression, so the Ep awarded is the same as what you would get for progression for the first kill, then current tier awards for subsequent kills. I don't think the GP costs are substantially higher.
There are no ilvl rules for heroics right now, but 370 is probably a good benchmark.
I'm not interested. We have
I'm not interested.
We have quite a few people capable of doing them, but I don't think heroics should be on our radar. We're very close to 4.3 probably within a couple of weeks. I think we should get as many people as we can firelands gear to have as much of a leg up on 4.3 as a whole as possible. Once we're running 4.3 content, we can have small groups doing heroic firelands the way they're running 4.1 heroic content now. The gear will still be comperable to the regular gear of 4.3, so still worthwhile to work toward.
Heroics are a lot of added stress, and require us to make compromises on raid size and who we take that I'm not happy with us making. Having fun clearing these bosses that not that long ago we were stressing over is all the fun I need, not to mention more Rag kills in regular as a worthwile goal.
Yeah
This is really how I feel about it too. I'm getting a lot of pressure to run heroics, so I agreed to put them on the calendar. But I would honestly rather just plow through Firelands on 25man as many times as possible, and then let small groups get together on their own to run FL heroics, the way they are doing now for T11 heroics, AFTER 4.3.